I don’t think you are being argumentative!

If you read the Lk 16 acct carefully, there is no indication that Lazarus is able to see the rich man, only that the rich man is able to see Lazarus. The question remains whether Abraham is literally Abraham or God, although I would think that he is literally Abraham. In my view Abraham and Lazarus are in the presence of God. This is only an interpretation, of course.

In the OT, I think that the best understanding of ‘atonement’ is as a substitution rather than a covering. There is a rather technical debate on the meaning of the word, several suggestions of alternate roots from various ancient languages, but it seems the OT usage should dominate, not root meaning, so substitute is best.

Remember that the salvation of OT saints is real, not something secondary. Paul makes the point about Abraham being justified by faith in Rm 4, and James does the same in Jas 2.

There is a sense in which OT saints were saved on “layaway” as you say, but the fact is that they were saved. Abraham was justified, not when Christ died, but when he believed. That is the whole point of justification by faith that Paul makes in Romans.

That is not to say there are no distinctions between OT saints and NT saints, but they are the one people of God in heaven.

more later…

Regards,
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

If you do believe Luke 16 represents reality (not a parable), do you believe that Abraham and Lazarus were actually in Heaven (where the presence of God dwells), yet were enabled to see and contact the rich man? And the great gulf, instead of being a literal gulf under the earth, is the gulf between Heaven and Hell?

One thing that comes to mind is that the Bible teaches all the OT sacrifices were for an atonement – ie. a covering of their sins. Their sins were not put away (borne away, taken away – John 1:29; Leviticus 16:21-22) until Jesus died upon the cross. Jesus’ sacrifice did two things: fulfilled the atonement (see Romans 5:11 – covered their sins forever, not just temporarily) and also took them away, we can see this pictured by the two goats on the Day of Atonement, and the two birds used in the rituals for healing of leprosy.

In an sense, they were saved on lay away, but the actual payment wasn’t until Calvary – therefore though saved, they were not perfect yet so could not dwell in the presence of God in Heaven. Hebrews 12 refers to what is now in Heaven – which includes the spirits of just men made perfect, but that was after the cross.

If there are flaws in some of what I have presented here, please show me. Thank you. I do appreciate your time spent on this – this is one of those areas where it just seems no one wants to help sort it out.

I agree that Luke 16 is not presented as a parable, and I agree that the tabernacle, etc., represent heavenly realities.

However, the Bible is not explicit on these points. The doctrine of Abraham’s bosom and other ideas connected with it are derived by implication. They are certainly a possible interpretation, but I don’t believe they are the only legitimate interpretation.

Regards,
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

How could people have lived in the presence of God (after death) before Jesus died on the cross? The whole tabernacle system was a picture of spiritual realities, and the veil was not torn until Jesus was on the cross.

That is one point of dispensational teaching that I don’t agree with. I believe that Abraham’s bosom is heaven, that the OT saints were in the presence of God as are NT saints after death. I find the teaching of Abraham’s bosom as a separate place pre-heaven, etc, is a case built only on inferences from Scripture. A doctrine built on inferences cannot be held dogmatically since the inferences can be interpreted in an alternate way.

Thus, I hold my point of view on these passages with respect for the many good brethren with whom I disagree. I could easily be wrong, but have not yet been convinced on this point.

Regards,
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

“I wonder what Moses thought as he conversed with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration – by this time, he has been in the presence of God for 1500 years. I don’t think he was tired of seeing the glory!”

The Bible teaches that no one could dwell in the presence of God (ie. the third Heaven, Hebrews 9:24) before the death of Christ, before the veil of His body was torn – how could Moses and Elijah have done so?

I believe that Moses and Elijah simply went where EVERY other OT saint went upon dying: Abraham’s Bosom (except Enoch and Elijah went there without dying).