Hi Greg

To carry on thinking with you, I guess that my position isn’t that we need exclusively pastoral leadership as such. And I am not saying that we don’t have leadership. What I am worried about (as I think about this) is that I don’t really like the direction that it sounds like a large segment of fundamentalism is moving. What I am really calling for, then, is people with some clout to put on the brakes and lead in a different direction.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Would that change anything in your mind if that became more of a norm? Because it wouldn’t surprise me to see it happening if Jesus tarries for many reasons- it’s more consistent Biblically than our current standard, it might make better financial sense…

I’m just thinking our loud, BTW. I have no inside information or anything.

I would argue based upon the pastoral epistles, not my local-only view. I think you have argued elsewhere Greg that it isn’t impossible to be both, that is, a pastor and a scholar. I think we see that in the Puritans and in someone like Jonathan Edwards. The first Baptist pastor in America, John Clarke, was a physican/pastor and wrote the Portsmouth Compact, the best first statement of government in the American colonies. I contend that the school professor or dean is a product of American culture more than something spiritual or biblical. Men don’t respect it more for biblical reasons, but for cultural ones.

Hi Greg

Thanks for the comment. I would guess that Kent would argue for leadership only from pastors of local churches based on his ‘local church only’ views. As for me, I am not so opposed to men in our seminaries exercising leadership and to some extent it is natural. However, this is one area where I would suggest the Conservative Evangelicals might function better than we do… Consider the T4G guys, most of them are pastors, right? Not Mohler, and not Mahaney any more, but aren’t all the rest of them pastors of local churches? Wouldn’t you say that ‘movement fundamentalism’ is somewhat more heavily dependent on seminary/school oriented leadership than pastor leadership?

And I guess from my perspective, I am seeing the school men either be silent or lead in directions I don’t like. So I am hoping some prominent pastors will take it upon themselves to call for a little restraint on the rush towards a weaker fundamentalism. It appears that not many are listening to me!

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Fair enough, but I am not talking about “leadership” per se, but about why pastors are not always able to give convincing answers to the young theologs on every issue floating around in the world today. We do look to seminaries or others to be keeping current in areas of their expertise and be giving us good solid reasons for taking a fundamentalist position.

Ideally, pastors should have an interest in one or two or three areas of theology/trends, etc and be writing and speaking to those issues for the benefit of the rest of us.

When it comes to who should be the leaders in fundamentalism, yes, I agree, it should be pastors and deacons primarily. But that isn’t the situation we have, is it?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I had listened to the entire taped series there at the MBA before coming over and reading. I have other things to say, but in brief, I actually agree with Joel in this comment section. I don’t look to a seminary to get my leadership. I can understand why Bauder thinks we need some kind of big time leaders in the realm of fundamentalism—I listened to enough of his presentation down in AZ. The church of 1 Timothy 3:15 has pastors and deacons, so it must be local. And that church is the pillar and ground of the truth, that is, my church is that pillar and ground.

Hi Joel,

Sorry to delay approval and reply, but your comment got caught by Akismet as spam, along with the junk for… other things. Hope that doesn’t give you a complex or anything!

BTW, I’ll buy if you come up for a Timmies. Although I’ve sworn off the fried stuff, I am into oatmeal and granola these days.

By looking to seminaries, I mean that in general, the small church pastor especially (and most pastors generally) are not capable of keeping current with all the theological trends. We tend to rely on seminary leaders to be on the cutting edge of that information and to disseminate it to those they are training. I am coming to realize that my assumption that seminary leaders are 1) up to speed, and 2) on board with fundamentalist philosophy is not necessarily so. But in general, no one can keep up with every ‘nuance’ (to use a trendy word) in the ecclesiastical movements and goings on generally. So I say we are relying on seminaries to provide that kind of training.

As for the effect the discussion is having on young leaders… I think there is a greater openness and willingness to enter fellowship with conservative evangelicals. By fellowship, I mean it in the Bible way of partnership, rather than the coffee way of Timmies. I think there is a rising tide of opinion that seems to say the right soteriology is all that matters and warnings against serious error are muted (or not given). (Mahaney and Driscoll are two key names in that context.) Even more than that, men with serious errors in doctrine and practice are actively promoted by some of our men. And finally, we are beginning to see a deterioration of holiness. The rocked out video-game generation, sipping substances much stronger than Tims, all the while claiming fundamentalist bona fides is what I mean here.

Is that sufficient to answer your question?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Tracy, I appreciate the comments. Quite a bit to consider, so if I miss something, please ask again.

I would say that the works of Ernest Pickering would be a major source of fundamentalist philosophy, especially Biblical Separation and The Tragedy of Compromise. Also Fred Moritz has two books out on the subject.

As I have ‘agonized’, I think that you and I are not as far apart as I once thought. It is not separation in itself that is the sine qua non of fundamentalism, but rather militancy. See Curtis Lee Law’s defining call and then subsequent history of the movement. Militancy may (and often does) lead to separation, but it isn’t simply separation in and of itself that is the issue.

As for the fundamentalist ‘movement’… well, for something to be a movement, it has to be going somewhere.

I think what we have today is a Conservative Evangelical movement (among others further to the left) and a stagnant pool of fundamentalists who don’t know where they are going, for the most part. One of the reasons for this is the silence you mention. Without leadership, a movement founders. Second and third generations for a movement always have a problem with malaise because the later leaders lose (or never had) the fire in the belly and are all about preserving and maintaining what they’ve got. I heard one leader speak of a time when his predecessors were willing to risk everything they had spent their lives on for the cause they believed in. I can’t help but wonder if the present leaders would risk their institutions for fundamentalism.

Finally, I think that another part of the problem is a “student centered” philosophy in many of the schools. Many decisions/policies/changes seem to be made with keeping the students happy, rather than training and discipling (sp??) and leading.

BTW, I often am arguing with some of the things KTB says, but his article today on SharperIron expresses a good deal of what I believe to be right as far as a fundamentalist philosophy is concerned. He and I may differ on application, but I agree in the main with what was published today.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Thanks to those who corrected my error. I have updated the post. Once again, I apologize for the mis-identification. As I said to one who sent a private e-mail:

Egg on the face is so attractive. (I guess I have to wear it today.)

@ Ryan

I hope you are right, but there are many indications that the philosophy being communicated is not the philosophy I have known for thirty years. Some would say the new philosophy is an improvement. Time will tell.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3