Relax, friend!

I know what you mean, but just pointing out that the things Dever advocates are not news to fundamentalism. The way some speak of his work it is as if we got a new tablet from the mount. I am not saying that is what you were advocating, but pointing out that the fundamentalism I know has taught these things for years.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

The point is, however, that fundamentalists practice discipline on this matter and have done so for a long time. Is there Scripture that says we must practice it exactly the way Dever does? Has 9 Marks become inspired somehow? Don’t think so. But to say that fundamentalists don’t practice discipline on this point is just not correct.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

LOL on the smack down reference. I’ve never been a WWF, but it really is just a figure of speech in this case (as you took it, signified by the emoticon).

I’d be glad to give Mark Dever credit where credit is due. However, my first sermon in Oct 1987, when our church started was expositional and that began my first ever series, through John. Sunday evening I was doing Ecclesiastes. I’m in the process of finishing the NT right now with a series through Luke. I’m in chapter 6. I did not know Dever or Piper. I had heard of MacArthur and he was a contributor to my understanding of expositional preaching—did you notice I gave him some props in my above comment.

On church discipline, we practice it consistently and been criticized for it roundly by other churches (fundamentalist and evangelical ones). We also discipline for lack of church attendance (1 John 2:19). You can’t be a card carrying member, that’s not one of the privileges of membership. I’m happy for whatever Dever does right and I’m glad to mention it. I’ve said I agree with all his nine marks. We were already doing those before I ever heard of Dever. He did get them from scripture. I wrote a post saying Dever doesn’t do enough—separation. He does great damage in a number of ways. He point blank told Minnick that he stayed in the SBC to preserve money and buildings. He should exposit Matthew 6:19-34 sometime. These are all the things that the Gentiles seek. You can tell he’s sensitive about the separation criticism. I think because he is converted.

I believe that what was done to Sweatt was a smack-down. I would expect the same of conservative evangelicals. I really was wanting something with names in it that goes after Piper’s wrong beliefs and practices, Mohler’s wrong beliefs and practices, MacArthur’s wrong beliefs and practices. I want a scholarly work against Christian hedonism. I’m planning on writing against it soon. I think he misrepresents Jonathan Edwards too. We’re not in fellowship with these guys for a reason. It isn’t because we don’t love them, Nathan. I love them. They are dangerous though, among other things because the doctrine of separation is so tied into pleasing our God.

Where do you get your strong vibes about me?

Anyway, re Dever… of the lot of the CEs, I would say that Dever and MacA have the most to offer. And you note some of the key problems. Add Acts 29 to that. But when I read 9 Marks, I thought… this is exactly what I learned in preacher boys at BJU. It was nothing new. When I see young fellows praise him as if its something new, its one of the things that makes me wonder about what is going on in the colleges.

And we have had automatic removal for non-attendance for 20+ years. I didn’t come up with the idea, I borrowed it from somewhere else. Of course, since it was so long ago, I have no idea where I got it from.

Anyway… We can see if Kent wants to add anything. He usually isn’t shy about expressing his point of view!

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Kent, remember, it is always ‘nuanced’.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Thanks for the reply, Dave. I appreciate the clarification.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I think this is what set Danny Sweatt off as well. He just wasn’t able to express it in a persuasive manner, that is, some exposition with good application. I noticed on his site that he preaches expositionally—doing a series through Revelation—but he didn’t get that done at an FBF meeting. What he did do was akin to what would often be done at FBF meetings in the past. Of course, he didn’t know he’d be linked to all over the world and I noticed something like 1500 downloads at sermon audio.

I’m waiting for some strong smacking down of John Piper and John MacArthur and Mark Dever from the fundamentalists. I’ll hold my breath. I don’t think it will happen. Nathan, could you direct me to some conference download where there was a strong put-down of the conservative evangelicals? I would like to listen to that.

I didn’t link because I don’t believe there is an argument to be checked out. You did not qualify your answer; you gave the reasons for it. So, unless you’re suggesting that your reasons actually serve as qualifications (that is, turning your “no” into a “yes and no” answer), then there is no point in going back and forth. You’re arguing against something I didn’t say (by your own admission) and something that I don’t do (and Nathan has provided eyewitness testimony to that).

Well, I guess we will have to just stand in disagreement then. No problem. I am glad for the interaction and your willingness to stick at it with me. I am glad Dave chimed in. I think our positions are different, but I don’t know what else we can say to make the distinctions clearer.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3