A very good question.

I’ll give some thought to that and get back to you.

Off to prayer meeting!

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I don’t want to derail this thread, but I’d like to ask you a question.

I’ve been part of fundamentalism for decades. I cut my teeth on perhaps the best of GARB fundamentalism, and I’ve fellowshipped with independent Baptist fundamentalism for years. I’ve seen good things and bad things. But I must confess I’ve never seen fundamentalism weaker and more unsure of itself than it is now.

Perhaps I’m wrong here, but I attribute much of fundamentalism’s current weakness to the secondhand lions now heading up its institutions and fellowships. Are there any fundamentalist institutions that currently model what fundamentalism should be?

Here’s the question I would like to ask you, Don, since I believe you’ll answer it partisanly but fairly. Fundamentalism as an idea is chic enough, but at some point it must take on a concrete expression. What in your opinion should a fully-dressed fundamentalism look like?

tjp

So that’s where it came from. I remember having to read that in high school. What a sickening book. Orwell got his point across, though, didn’t he? I think I read 1984 also, but I don’t remember if it was an assignment or not.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

(_Animal Farm_ George Orwell)

Hi Dan

Well, one shouldn’t read too much into my subject headers. I had something much more pedestrian in their originally, but then thought of the phrase as somewhat interesting (although cliched – I’m the king of cliches).

Yes, I think I would agree with your stance on the three scenarios. Pastoral leadership does have authority, primarily based in the Scriptural context. It needs to be exercised carefully, hopefully so that individuals will see their errors if they are in error and be willing to grow. I could tell a few stories of how that has worked out in our experience, but since our church is so small, if someone stumbled across these posts it could cause some embarrassments. But let me say that I have learned from bitter experience how NOT to exercise authority, and I have also seen members react entirely unspiritually and unscripturally even with (to my mind) utmost care in not “overlording” the flock. The process is certainly a difficult balancing act, complicated by the flesh on all sides.

Nevertheless, we are talking about ideal situations here. In theory, what I am describing and what you have added are the ways things should work.

Generally we have had a pretty good spirit in our church and folks have worked together fairly well. We try to cultivate a family spirit. It does take time. The test of quality comes at the moment someone needs some kind of admonition.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Hebrews 13:17 – obey your leaders
Romans 14:5b – each one should be fully convinced in his own mind

So, a pastor rebukes, corrects, and generally admonishes one of his congregants. That person is doing something his pastor thinks wrong and–
A. he thinks right
B. he thinks wrong, but is being rebellious
C. he didn’t think about, but now should

So, I see the Hebrews injunction applying to B definitely, to C possibly (at least until the person has become fully convinced otherwise in his own mind), and to A only in the sense as encouragement to reexamine.

Is that how you see it?
Basically, then, a pastor’s spiritual authority is in taking care to actively encourage toward that which is right and speak out (rebuke, correct, etc.) against that which he believes wrong. Right?

Hi Keith

I would see the congregational vote in Acts 6 and the selection of deacons. No scripture mandates quarterly or annual business meetings, so the number of meetings is certainly a matter of liberty. However, some kind of regular meeting should occur whereby leadership is held accountable for their stewardship of church business. Annually would seem to me to be the minimum (and all that is necessary in relatively small churches), but I suppose you could argue for every two years or every three years instead. I think this is reasonable and a minimum of annual meetings is the practice of non-profit societies in secular culture. I don’t think we should be less diligent about business than lost people are.

So this would be a matter of wisdom, testimony, reasonableness, etc., with the pattern of Acts 6 as a precedent. A few other passages might imply some congregational decision making and others imply accountability (see 2 Cor 8-9 for a few hints at it). Those would be my basis for our business practices.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Dan you ask great questions. You must have inherited an analytical mind from someone!

All believers have some level of authority in admonishing one another, but Paul does insist that we have at least two witnesses to receive a rebuke of an elder. It does seem there is some difference between the office of elder/pastor and the layman. Nevertheless, we are all admonished to bear one another’s burdens. If that includes admonition and rebuke, and I think it does, then there is universal Scriptural authority for this.

The pastor’s authority in this area does seem to differ from the average member. I am struggling to define this, but it does seem there are differences. I was going to say that folks somewhat expect a pastor to intervene in their lives and might ‘take it’ better from him than from another member, but that isn’t always the case. I’ll have to think on this some more to express it better.

I don’t believe the Bible ever demands blind loyalty to any authority. We are responsible first to God. This is where soul liberty comes in.

If you disagree with a pastor’s rebuke/exhortation, the consequences could involve leaving the church, but this isn’t always the case. Some will coexist as best they can while remaining at disagreement on the issue. If they can do this without causing a controversy in the local church, such a relationship can be maintained for some time.

I am not quite sure about what you mean in your last three questions. Perhaps you could give them another try?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

This may be slightly off topic, but I think it is sufficiently related to justify hitting the “submit” button:

Earlier in this discussion you said that the only justification for congregational government is that it is the N.T. pattern. Could you show me where in the N.T. we can see a congregational vote or a quarterly or annual business meeting.

Keith