Of course Christians can do better than the wisdom of the world, but often they seem to be frightfully deceived. Of course, it is an open question whether we are talking about true Christians or not in some circumstances.

I can’t say I’ll have time to check out Keller but I may at some point. He has many serious problems in other areas, but we won’t get into that here.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

In the same sense that believers should consult certain authorities in the world for information on how to behave, I agree with you. For example, we should talk to doctors, lawyers, wise social commentators, and even psychologists for some helpful information. However, there are ways that Christians can do BETTER than the wisdom of this world.

Let me ask this question: in the same way that believers are to treasure Christ instead of money, is there a possibility that this passage also could lead Christians who choose to drink according to conscience, a different reason for and way of drinking?

You may be interested (or angered probably) by Tim Keller’s discussion on the miracle at Cana. Check out his Q&A on iTunes U from RTS this is “Preaching Christ in a Postmodern World.” Session 18 Q&A. Start about minute 15. This is an evangelical distinguishing the difference between drunkeness and drinking. In interest of knowing other arguments, you may want to check this out.

http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Core.woa/Feed/rts-public.1674108893.01674108898

Shayne

Hi Matt and Shayne

The parable is a notoriously difficult passage to interpret. And I should say that I partly misunderstood Matt’s first comment, so my earlier comment is at least partly off.

Here is a comment from Tom Constable with respect to this passage:

Jesus commended the agent’s shrewdness or prudence (Gr. phronimos, i.e., practical wisdom) in spending his wealth to secure his future (cf. 12:42). He did not, of course, approve of his squandering his master’s money earlier through incompetence or dishonesty (v. 1), whichever may have characterized him. That simply marked him as an unrighteous man. The fact that he had not been shrewd at first sets off his later shrewdness as even more commendable.

The sons of this age are unrighteous unbelievers who live simply by the principles that govern most people in the present age. Sons of the light are people who live in the light of God’s revelation and are therefore believers (cf. 11:33–36; Eph. 5:8). The implication is that they are believers who are in fellowship with God (cf. 1 John 1:7). Jesus’ point was that prudent dealings characterize unbelievers more than believers. Disciples can do well by learning from them as we anticipate the future. ((Tom Constable, Tom Constable’s Expository Notes on the Bible, Lk 16:8 (Galaxie Software, 2003; 2003).))

The point I am making with the use of this verse is that the children of this world are often more clear in their understanding and use of worldly things than believers are. Believers often seem to be naive concerning the things of this world. They would do well to take into consideration the things the worldlings say concerning the things of this world.

Regardless of the correct interpretation of the verse, my larger point is that the sophistry of the stock answers of the ‘responsible’ drinkers for why they drink is countered by the wisdom of the world. The worldlings know why they drink. I think Christians who drink are at least self-deceived concerning their motivations, if not worse.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

P. S. I don’t think the versions make a difference. The esv is essentially identical to the kjv here. FWIW, here is the nau, which surprisingly is a little less literal in this verse, but gets the gist of the idiomatic expression a little better than the kjv and esv:

NAU Luke 16:8 “And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.

We as Christians need to carefully invest our failing resources in unfailing ways (see Luke 16:9).

For example, instead of buying a new car, maybe I should give to a mission fund that takes kids off the streets and teaches them the Bible. This would be a way to improve someone’s life, much like the dishonest manager did when he forgave part of people’s debts.

Perhaps you could say there are other things we could learn from those of the world; however, I think it is a stretch to make this passage say that the unsaved know better sometimes when it comes to matter of Christian liberty.

This is good discussion on this subject. Instead of focusing on debatable passages that require a large amount of historical interpretation, the scripture passages that most easily cut the hearts of my local culture are ones like these. This is frankly, more convincing.

Regarding interpreting the passage, I think you would both agree that the more tangential the application to the text, the harder it is for a teacher to say “these are the words of God for you,” even though I agree with a sort of prophetic preaching where pastors need to make strong application to daily living depending on the struggles of the day.

Best,

Shayne

Hi Matt

I think, rather, that it the general principle is that believers are often quite naive about some things and ought to learn from something from worldly wisdom. The specific context doesn’t mean we can’t derive a general principle and apply it to other situations.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3