I don’t know of any truly hyper Cs in our circles either. There are a few IYFs, though … on both sides. That is where a lot of the troubles lie.

Respectfully, based on your definition, I don’t think they do exist. I agree with your definition about not being evangelistic – that is the crux of what it means to be a hyper. I know ALOT of calvinists (and am one) and I interact with ALOT. I have yet interact with a non evangelistic. I know MANY that are accused of being hyper, not because they are not evangelistic, but becasue they are 5 pointer. I know one pastor who firmly believes any body that believes more than eternal security is a hyper-calvinist. Sincerely believing that does not make it so.

Hi Roger

There is another category that is difficult as well (and this is true of any theological system), but it is what I call “in-your-face” Calvinists. What I mean by that is those who are seemingly more interested in creating disciples of Calvin than of Christ. These guys create divisions in churches. (And we could put the descriptor ‘in-your-face’ in front of Dispensationalism, Arminianism, etc. pick your label… even fundamentalism).

We had a guy as a member in our church who was a pretty strong Calvinist. We talked about it. I told him that he knew where we stood, we knew where he stood, and he would have to accept that I might say something from the pulpit that he wouldn’t like. (I never singled him out and I think most of our people didn’t even know he had slightly different views than me.) We had a good relationship. I occasionally made him mad because I preached passages as I understand them. We would talk it out and agree to work together. He never caused us a problem in the ministry by trying to create his own little clique in the church. He just simply joined in and helped. He later moved out of town, but it was a good relationship.

I would hope that if I, believing as I do, found myself in a church led by a Calvinist pastor that I could do as well as my friend did.

The point being, that we can get along and work together as long as we are willing to and as long as we believe and contend for the fundamentals.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

PS: I don’t know of any truly hyper Cs in our circles either. There are a few IYFs, though … on both sides. That is where a lot of the troubles lie.

I know I hear the “concern” that there are hyper-calvinist within fundamental circles. I think you make good distinction, one that not believe in evangelism. I don’t know ANY that exist in our movement. In fact, the more I have grown in the Doctrines of Grace, the more the Lord has allowed me to become more evangelistic. I know alot of stronger Calvinists than me and I dont know one that is not evangelistic.

Hi Keith,

I was beginning a brilliant reply and hit the wrong key and … poof!

Well, as for the Calvinism question, Calvinists believe in salvation by faith alone. Those who are not “hyper” believe in evangelism. So as long as the Calvinist in question is comfortable with me, we can work together in a lot of ways. (There is of course the possibility that our differences might limit the areas we could work together also.)

As for music, etc., within a certain range, musical styles can make cooperation very difficult. (And by “fellowship”, I mean “partnership” or “cooperation”, not mere friendly associations.) If for example someone is using music that I think is worldly and that I teach our people not to use, it will be confusing to our people to be encouraged to go to a meeting where the style of music is actually something I teach against. It makes it hard to cooperate when obvious public differences like that exist.

The key thing here is something I keep talking about, but a lot of people don’t seem to get. When we are talking about separation/fellowship issues, I think some of our terminology has been to blame for a lot of misunderstanding. We should use separation only for issues that involve denial of fundamentals – I deny that any fellowship exists between Bible believing Christians and theological liberals or Roman Catholics. But we should talk in terms of fellowship and withdrawal or withholding or limitation of fellowship when it comes to various differences between true Christians. It doesn’t mean we anathematize them, but we can’t work closely with them either, and in some cases we need to sound warnings against their public errors.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Do you say the same about Roman Catholics?

Seriously though, if soteriology shouldn’t be a test of fellowship (and I’m not arguing that it should) then why should music or “standards”? How can music style or what you broadly call “ministry philosophy” be more important than the doctrine of salvation?

Keith

I have been following your blog for sometime, as well as your comments on SI and FR.
I appreciate your balanced approach and use of the Scriptures.

Ryan

I agree in general with what you say, but with respect to the unrepentant predator, it isn’t clear that that was obvious to the pastor involved at the time. We just don’t know what he knew at the time.

I think that there are some inconsistencies that will happen. We have to decide how to handle that.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

In the last area, I mentioned I guess the connection that I was trying to make is this. i believe it is clear now that an unrepentant predator was allowed to be a member of an IFB church of our stripe. I will not wait and see any longer on that. IF that happened, it was wicked, there was no justification for that. If I am wrong, I will stand corrected on that. I wish I were, but in my research i don’t think i am.

I think holding ourselves to a high standard is the only way to please God. I am for patience with humble. But arrogance should be confronted. It is one of the worst sins in any of us…and sometimes we pastors get WAY to prideful. I don’t think we corner the market on it in Fundy land…but we can only deal with it in our corner.
In Christ,
Rog

Hi Roger

I really appreciate your taking the time to think about this and respond.

A few responses:

I don’t think I have ever condemned attending any conference. Brian McLaren of emerging church infamy was to show up in our town recently. I would have gone if they weren’t charging a fee.

I can’t speak for Cogden, I don’t know him at all. If whatever platform he shared would tend to create confusion for those less well informed, I would be against it.

I don’t mind someone being a Calvinist, as long as they don’t mind being wrong!! (Joke, joke. Ok, very little joke.) Actually, I find that it isn’t that the non-Calvinists who are making an issue about Calvinism. I can give examples, but I’ll do that privately if you are interested. But I don’t have problems fellowshipping with Calvinists as long as they aren’t making soteriology a test of fellowship.

As to Bob Gray, well, how can I answer for him? He was off in a different universe before all of his troubles came out. I knew he was from Jacksonville and he went to Germany. I wasn’t waiting and seeing about anything. Most people outside of his circles would know nothing of any allegations.

But really, it isn’t fair to put him in the mix on the ‘wait and see’ question. If I had evidence of anyone doing what he did, you can bet your bottom dollar I’d be talking to the police right away. But the other issues you and I have discussed in the ‘wait and see’ category are not even close to those kinds of allegations. They are a million miles away from them.

Thanks for your reply, nonetheless.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3