Hi Eric

Sorry, I missed your question regarding the language of Scripture in your earlier post.

I would suspect that if the Biblical words marked the vocabulary, I would be less suspicious of a man-centered approach. As it is, the terms used seem too much to be popular buzz-words that reflect an over-dependence on certain charismatic leaning preachers rather than a dependence on the Scriptures as the primary source.

And no, I don’t think the charismatic impulse is something new. I think it is a long standing error.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Maybe their vocabulary contains words of emotion because that has been decidedly lacking in their circles in their generation. Maybe their vocabulary contains words of emotion because they’re reflecting the worship language of the Bible (A point I would like to hear you respond to from my previous post, if you have time). To assume they use that language because they’re so influenced by a particular preacher, or because they’re just seeking experience, doesn’t quite follow.

And can you please explain/demonstrate which emotions the words “saturated” and “intentional” correspond to? I’m having trouble connecting those dots.

Eric, thank you for stopping by.

First, I am of course not suggesting that emotion in religious expression is somehow an invention of the 20th century, as I already said in my post by listing pre-20th century manifestations.

Second, my point is not to deny that emotions come into play in religion, but to question whether the pursuit of emotional religion is an error or a virtue. I tend to think of it as an error, because it idolizes the experience instead of worshiping God. Such idolatry is possible with or without ‘official’ charismatism. Some of my KJO friends seem to pursue it by using highly emotional illustrations in preaching and staging their services in an emotive way. I suspect that others, non-charismatics and non-KJO, make the pursuit of emotion the prime directive of crafting their worship experiences.

To say all that is not to say that the presence of emotion or emotive elements is idolatry. What I am asking is this: is the pursuit of emotion actually a kind of idolatry?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

By those questions (and subsequent discussion) are you implying that emotion in religious expression is somehow an invention of the 20th century?!

As for your list of emotional terms, we could add “earnestly” “yearn” “longing” “grief” “weep” “exult” etc.
If these words also strike you as inappropriately emotion-laden and unsuitable for worship, then I suggest you spend more time in the Psalms.

BTW, “intentional” isn’t a word of emotion at all, but of intellect and volition. Just sayin’.

Well, I appreciate the emphasis that Scott has put on ‘ordinate affections’, I think he is generally headed in the right direction. I just disagree with the terminology, for the most part. I think that making a distinction where none exists may weaken the overall thrust of the argument. (And I think the argument about affections is too dependent on Jonathan Edwards, who, for all his brilliance, is not infallible.)

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

For starters I do mean I buy the distinction between them, and I think my (as well as many others my age and younger) former failure to recognize it has to do with the fact that we in our culture do not take life as seriously as we ought.

BTW, I don’t think that’s true of you. I assume you have looked seriously at it and just disagree.

Hi Dave

Welcome to the Power Decade. (That’s what I said when I hit 40.) Alas, I have passed it behind and am now into the Waning of Power decade. Pretty soon I’ll just be old.

I don’t think your question is really a true or false question, since you start with a conditional statement. I am not sure I buy all of the talk about Affections. I especially don’t buy the distinction between Affections and Passions, as if there is a dichotomy between them. I don’t see it in the Bible, especially when we are told to set our affections on things above. That implies that the normal stance is to set affections on things below. Thus, I think Affections/Passions/Emotions are basically the same thing.

I’d have to think about it a bit more whether worship MUST involve ordinate affections, whatever that is. I am not sure that is required. This is an aspect of Scott Aniol’s teaching that is under the category of “not proven” as far as I am concerned.

I will concede that the ‘intentional/saturated crowd’ may only be saying that they want to point worship in the right direction. In fact, I think that is what Chris Anderson is saying. My objection isn’t really to the subject of his message at the PtTC. That’s why I didn’t want to bring his name into it. I object more to the pervading vocabulary. Chris isn’t the only person that uses it, and I am wondering if it isn’t connected to the desire for experience. I think it is a mistake to use the vocabulary, especially because of how it is used elsewhere. I think that it can tip someone over into the pursuit of experience for experience sake, rather than achieve what Chris might be after in his use of the terms.

As for your last sentence, what do you mean by equivocating between emotions and affections? Not sure I get that one.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I don’t contend that emotional engagement should be a focus or a goal in itself. Emotions/affections are going to be involved in all but the coldest of fish. Emotions are something to be shepherded along with the rest of the “person”.

I think that may be all the intentional/saturated crowd (at least the better eggs among them) may be saying.

Furthermore, as someone who hit the big 40 this past year, I have noticed anew the calls to dignity and sobriety in the NT. I think maturity is a failure of our society in general and of the church as well.

I also think that failure to pursue maturity perpetuates the tendency to equivocate between emotions and affections.

Hi Dave

Interesting.

Ok, I’ll concede that those using this emphasis have the end of loving God with heart, soul, mind, and strength in view. How is that achieved by focusing on stirring emotions in worship? Jesus said, ‘If ye love me, keep my commandments.’ The love of God certainly includes a certain emotional attachment, but is that the foremost way we are to express our love to God? Is it called for in Scripture?

The Scriptures have much to command about sobriety, circumspection and self-control. I don’t think we are urged to pursue emotion as the means to that maturity.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3