I’ve been thinking about this thread today after getting a note privately from a fairly regular reader. He didn’t care to join the thread, so I will post his comment anonymously.

I would like to urge you, though, to consider whether you’re dealing fairly with someone like Christian Markle to suggest that he’s somehow arguing like a new evangelical because he thinks there is room in the NT for praying for the salvation of false teachers. I believe it is that kind of tendency—the one that likens any difference of perspective to supposed softening of fundamentalist views—that promotes posturing, not separation. I could understand your reaction if Justin Taylor was treating Rob Bell as a brother who was merely mistaken on some things, but he clearly stated the gravity of Bell’s error and called people to pray for him “to know… the liberating gospel of grace.” The compromise of new evangelicalism wasn’t about praying for false teachers to be saved, it was accepting them as if they were. To be more precise about my concern, it is completely fine if you don’t think anybody should pray for the salvation of false teachers, but you are over-reaching when you speak and act as if your view of it is the proper fundamentalist response and to question your view suggests capitulation to new evangelicalism.

I have to agree and would like to apologize to Christian Markle for my earlier comments.

I still don’t believe that we must pray for false teachers, and think I can make a case for the opposite.

But really, in thinking about Justin Taylor’s post, my reaction was more to the fact that he changed his post to a ‘kinder gentler’ approach than I think he should have. It seemed to me to be the typical evangelical caving in from a hardline position. However, in criticizing it, I turned the whole discussion into whether it is right to pray for apostates or not. In the end, I don’t think that really is the point.

So my apologies to Christian.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

And, I couldn’t resist: “I personally believe that the final step of church discipline involves turning the sinner over to Satan (under God’s sovereign control, cf. Matt. 18:17-20) so that he may be severely chastened, with the goal of his repentance and restoration”
So, you do want repentance after all! (as long as we don’t pray for it) :)

I think we have beat this horse to death. We are going to keep saying the same things to each other, and I don’t see much profit in repeating the same things over and over.

To sum up my view:

The New Testament calls for our prayers for ‘all men’, but since the New Testament indicates some men are under the judgement of God and have gone beyond hope of redemption, we are not mandated to pray for them. These truths are not contradictory, one is a general call, the others are special exclusions.

It is the tendency of the soft tolerance of New Evangelicalism and its heirs to water down the hard edges of the New Testament with respect to false teachers. This is seen in the way that Justin Taylor changed his post to a ‘kinder, gentler’ stance. The vehement arguments against my view here are also symptomatic of the same errors.

~~~
I don’t intend to go point by point through the other things that have been said, I believe that we have covered everything sufficiently already. I will add the following, however, due to Ed’s complaint regarding the verses I cited as prayers in the NT:

As for my citation of 2 Tim 4.14, Gal 1.8-9, and 1 Cor 16.22 as prayers, the first two are cited as such in Naves Topical under the heading “imprecatory prayers”.

It is possible that 2 Tim 4.14 should not fall in this category, but Matthew Henry calls it a “prophetic denunciation”.

On Gal 1.8-9, Boice has this comment: “The vehemence with which Paul denounces those who teach another gospel (literally, he say, ‘Let them be damned’) has bothered some commentators, as well as other readers of the letter. But this shows how little the gospel of God’s grace is understood and appreciated and how little many Christians are concerned for the advance of biblical truth.” Boice, p. 429.

And Matthew Henry: “How confident he was that the gospel he had preached to them was the only true gospel. He was so fully persuaded of this that he pronounced an anathema upon those who pretended to preach any other gospel (v. 8), and, to let them see that this did not proceed from any rashness or intemperate zeal in him, he repeated it, v. 9. This will not justify our thundering out anathemas against those who differ from us in minor things. It is only against those who forge a new gospel, who overturn the foundation of the covenant of grace, by setting up the works of the law in the place of Christ’s righteousness, and corrupting Christianity with Judaism, that Paul denounces this.”

Here is the Bible Knowledge Commentary on 1 Cor 16.22: “Paul invoked God’s wrath on these false teachers (cf. Gal. 1:8-9) and in the same breath appealed to Christ to return (cf. Matt. 7:21-23; Rev. 22:20).”

Here is J. Vernon McGee: “Anathema means ‘accursed.’ Paul is saying, ‘If any one does not love the Lord, let him be accursed.'”

And Matthew Henry: “We have here the doom of the person described: ‘Let him be Anathema, Maran-atha, lie under the heaviest and most dreadful curse. Let him be separated from the people of God, from the favour of God, and delivered up to his final, irrevocable, and inexorable vengeance.'”

My point in quoting these sources is merely to say that I am not alone in my view of the passages. You disagree. Be my guest.

I close with this paragraph from the article at Bible.org I cited earlier:

The church discipline of the New Testament is not really that different from the imprecatory psalms of the Old Testament. The New Testament also contains curses. Paul cursed Elymas for resisting the gospel (Acts 13:6-11) and damned any who would pervert it (Gal. 1:8-9). Peter pronounced sentence on Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). Paul delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan (1 Tim. 1:20) as he did the man living with his father’s wife (1 Cor. 5:5). I personally believe that the final step of church discipline involves turning the sinner over to Satan (under God’s sovereign control, cf. Matt. 18:17-20) so that he may be severely chastened, with the goal of his repentance and restoration (cf. 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 2:5-11).

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Re: 1
Thanks for the link to the sermons.

RE: 2
Thanks for the correction. If in fact Mr Bell is not a brother then 1 John 5:16 which opens with the phrase “If any man see his brother sin…” The context of the latter part of the verse leaves us with contextual placement of the sin unto death being isolated to the sins of Christians (which theologically makes a whole lot of sense due to the lost only deserving to die due to rejection of the Savior). The fact that we do not have a robust view (due to a lack of robust revelation) of the sin unto death leaves us without confidence that this verse applies to any one who is not a brother. Even if one were to grant you that this passage tells us NOT to pray for those sinning a sin unto death, does it not seems very thin to use such a passage of Mr. Bell when you are do not think he is a brother?

Re: 3 Follow up question: How do you define an apostate?

Observations:
— Brother Taylor’s revised ending calls for prayer for two parties: Mr. Bell that he would teach accurately and his hearers. And then ends with a desire for much mercy.

— Brother Johnson’s OP questions the very practice of prayer for a false teacher. But agrees that one ought to pray for his hearers.

— It appears that we are not concerned any more if prayer is appropriate. Both sides seem to agree that prayer is in fact appropriate. Some say prayer for mercy others say prayer for judgment (ie impreccatory prayers)

Do I have this right or have I misunderstood?

For His glory,
Christian Markle

In your answer to Christian about 1 Tim 2, you recognize what I’ve been saying (perhaps reluctantly). “in spite of the general desire of God for the salvation of all men, our enthusiasm for evangelistic prayers must be tempered by other passages of Scripture.” I agree (in fact, that’s what I said). The problem is you have yet to put forth a passage that contradicts this command (other than perhaps 1 Jn 5:16, but as I’ve said, you’d have to show that applies in this situation).

The passages that you claim are prayers: 2 Tim 4:14 has a future active indicative verb–usually a statement of fact, and the context mentions nothing about prayer. Gal 1:8-9 and 1 Cor 16:22 contain a present active imp (3s). So, is Paul commanding God in these prayers? Again, the context mentions nothing about prayer. It would be like me saying Mt 24:14 is a prayer, and thus we should pray for the salvation of all people. The problem is, it’s not a prayer, and nothing in the context makes it one.

Apparently, though, I’ve failed to realize that you are the one who determines what is true or false. So, if you say they are prayers, they must be. Just like if you say Matt 7:23 is a quotation of Ps 6:8, it must be (even if Jesus uses a different verb than the LXX version of Ps 6:8). I guess I’ll just need to ask you any question I have about these things :) However, even if it’s a quote (rather than simply a use of the similar language, like I think), it doesn’t change the fact that Ps 6 says nothing about not praying for people’s salvation (b/c if it did, it would contradict Jesus command to pray for our enemies–the people mentioned in Ps 6). It’s a prayer for David’s deliverance (see Ps 6:1-4)

(BTW, I noticed you have yet to deal with Rom 10 or Matt 5:44 and Lk 6:28.)

“We are talking about an apostate professing Christian here” So was I. What do you think a Catholic priest or Mormon elder are? Both profess to be Christians, and would very naturally fit Gal 1:8-9 (teaching a different gospel of adding works to faith). I’ve had Muslim imams tell me they worship the same God as Christians, and Buddhist monks believe you could be a Christian and a Buddhist (b/c they are inclusive).

So again, you think it’s wrong to tell people to pray for a Catholic priest or Mormon elder?

For the first question, I don’t have the time to give a full treatment of it here in this place. I acknowledge that the passage calls for something I call ‘evangelistic prayer’, and the call is for that prayer to be offered for all people generally and for kings and rulers more specifically. You can find a series of sermons I preached on the passage here. However, in spite of the general desire of God for the salvation of all men, our enthusiasm for evangelistic prayers must be tempered by other passages of Scripture. You cannot have one passage rule over all the others, they must all rule each other harmoniously.

I think you meant to say Rob Bell. No, I don’t think Rob Bell is a brother in Christ.

I think I already answered the last question. Saul was not an apostate.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Could you answer a few questions for me?

First, could you go on an explain the whole paragraph of 1 Tim 2:1-8 showing how each element fits with the rest?

Second, do you believe Rod Bell to be a brother in Christ?

Lastly, could you answer for us how your view would deal with a blasphemer like the Pharisee Saul?

For His glory,
Christian Markle

Ed, the 1 Timothy passage works this way:

“I urge that [prayers] be made … THAT we may live…”

The “that” is a purpose statement, it expresses the purpose of these prayers and limits the content of such prayers, in my opinion. The reason for offering these prayers is that God wishes all men to be saved.

I don’t think I mentioned the Jeremiah passages, that would have been tjp, I think. Not that I disagree with him mentioning them…

You say:

2 Tim 4:14, Gal 1:8, and 1 Cor 16:22 say nothing about prayer.

They are prayers.

You can quibble all you like about the quotation of Ps 6, but you’d just be wrong.

As far as your question regarding imams, monks, mormon elders, or even the apostle Paul, it is irrelevant. We are talking about an apostate professing Christian here, not those from unbelieving religious systems.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jeremiah 33.3

PS: I have been meaning to add this, a link to a good article on imprecatory prayers.

You mention not praying for a blasphemer, but that’s what Paul was before salvation (1 Tim 1:13). Would it have been wrong to ask Christians to pray that Saul would repent?

And, is it wrong to pray for the salvation of muslim imams, or Catholic priests, or buddhist monks, or Mormon elders, or…?

I think you’re misunderstanding 1 Tim 2. It doesn’t say “make a ‘general prayer for peacable lives'”. It says to pray for people–all people. The kings and those in authority is actually a specific example of the “all people.” It seems you’re taking the “this” in v. 3 to refer to leading peaceful lives, when it is more apparently tied to the command in v. 1 to pray for all men–why? Because God wants all men to be saved. As I said above, the repetition of “all people” explains what the prayer is about.

So, your exegesis of 1 Tim 2 is lacking–it’s not simply a general prayer for peacable lives, but is a command to pray for all people for their salvation (peacable lives is a subset of that prayer). So, either you limit the “all people” in this passage to simply mean “all kinds of people” (and, thus, God doesn’t want all people to be saved, but all kinds of people) or you allow it to stand as a command to pray for all people for their salvation.

Now, just as with other commands in Scripture (e.g., “ask and it will be given”, other passages can help us to understand exceptions and limitations to this command. So, 1 Jn 5:16 could be an exception, but the v. doesn’t say “don’t pray for him” but “don’t pray for this” referring to the giving of life in spite of the sin. And, you would have to show that Rob Bell has committed this sin that leads to death (which, so far, you haven’t.)

The passages in Jer are specific commands to Jeremiah not to pray for the nation b/c God has decided to punish them (IOW, it’s clear that there is no hope for repentance.) Did you receive some revelation from God that Rob Bell is past repentance like Jeremiah did for the nation of Israel? Or was Paul disobeying this command when he prayed for Israel to be saved?

2 Tim 4:14, Gal 1:8, and 1 Cor 16:22 say nothing about prayer. They are statements of fact and/or commands regarding God’s understanding of these people. However, you are extrapolating beyond the text to say they mean “do not pray for the salvation of this person.” After all, Paul would have fallen into that category before his salvation (i.e., he was preaching another gospel). Would it have been wrong to pray for Paul to repent?

The imprecatory Psalms are definitely passages of Scripture that we neglect too easily today. However, they do not say “don’t pray for repentance.” Obviously they do communicate the importance of praying for God’s justice, but they don’t negate a command to pray for salvation/repentance.

Finally, I’m not convinced Jesus is referring to Ps. 6:8 in Matt 7, but even in that passage it makes plenty of sense to assume that David’s prayer to God is one of deliverance (which would include the shame of his enemies, since they are what he is being delivered from). And still, it does not forbid praying for his enemies (otherwise, Jesus would be contradicting it when he tells us to pray for our enemies)

Ultimately, I think the issue comes down to this: the best explanation of 1 Tim 2 is that it commands prayer for salvation for all people b/c God wants all people to be saved (which also matches up well with Paul’s prayer for all Israel to be saved in Rom 10, and Jesus commands to pray for our enemies). You have yet to present a verse that forbids praying for repentance for all people (1 Jn 5:16 is the closest, but without explaining what the sin unto death is, it’s hard to argue it applies in this situation). Instead, you’ve offered verses that also talk about praying for justice and recognizing that false teachers are under God’s condemnation…but that’s where all lost people are (i.e., accursed, under God’s wrath.)

So again, I ask: “is it wise to condemn people for doing something if we don’t have pretty clear teaching from Scripture to condemn them for it?” (after all, you didn’t say, “Taylor could have also asked people to pray for God’s just condemnation to come.” You said “we should not pray for false teachers.” And so far, we have been presented with verses that would include prayers for false teachers and no verse that clearly excludes them.)