“But the other extreme is just as real: that of embracing a witch hunt mentality in which accusers are automatically right, alleged victims cannot be doubted in any respect, where anyone who questions any of the premises of accusers is immediately lumped in with the presumed-guilty, and–in this case–where we ascribe spiritual authority to legal, psychological and sociological authorities.

(Kevin does allude some to the reality of the witch-hunt danger, mentioning that some have probably been wrongly accused, for example. Because where I sit I see more of the witch-hunt extreme, I tend to focus on countering that one. But I have no desire to defend those truly guilty of the other.)

Just want to point out that there are two sets of wrong responses to the issue and we truly need to be alert to both, and avoid both.”

~ Aaron Blumer, responding to Kevin Bauder

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

“Nor should we blame the victims for going outside the fundamentalist network to seek justice. The whole reason that they have been forced to this extreme is because they could not find justice within the structure of the churches and other institutions that were supposed to help them.” ~Dr. Kevin T. Bauder

And I’ll desist.

Dave, you are confusing issues. I don’t think Bauder and Doran have said anything like what Bixby said. I am reacting to Bob’s post and to the hysterics on Sharper Iron. I am saying that fundamentalism does not foster child sexual abuse. I am not saying that there aren’t some needs for change in fundamentalism in general, but the reasons that those things need to change are not because fundamentalism fosters child sexual abuse.

Quite frankly, I am getting rather tired of going round and round about this. I think I have been perfectly clear about what I am saying. If nothing new is added, I think I am going to shut comments on this thread down. It is fruitless to constantly keep repeating the same thing, post after post, only to have those of you debating reply with the same obtuse objections post after post.

So unless something new is added to the discussion, I think we are pretty close to the end.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Remind me again who the ranking (active) officer (after the CEO) of your fundamentalist fellowship is.

By the way, I didn’t ask you to apologize for anything. I asked you what would be wrong with such an expression of repentance and self-examination as opposed to a Bixby’s-on-a-witch-hunt mantra.

I’ll just note that you didn’t really answer me other than to explain that’s not really how you roll.

And does it matter why Bixby is saying what he’s saying? Even if he means it for evil, God means it for good. Let’s pursue that good!

But Kevin Bauder is saying similar. Doran has, in a limited way, expressed similar concerns. These latter are not the enemies of fundamentalism. At least, in the opinion of this nobody YF, they are not the enemies of a fundamentalism worth saving.

Well. quite a bit of comment while I was out. I’ll try to give some replies to each in one post.

@Keith:

What can I say? You insist on twisting my words. So I guess I’ll say nothing.

@Watchman

Yes, of course, I think there should be something in IFB culture that makes child sexual abuse less than society in general. However, those accusing IFB culture of fostering such abuse need to prove that it actually does so. AT WORST, from what I have read on-line, incidences in Fundamentalist/IFB churches are no more than society at large, but I actually think it is much less. That is an opinion, I realize. But the sites I have read devoted to the subject seem to indicate a much lower incidence amongst Fundamentalist/IFB churches.

Now, that is no reason to take a “Don’t worry, be happy” approach, but it is to refute the charges being made by those who are antagonistic to fundamentalism to start with. Consider the source. Don’t be swayed by bigots.

@Roger

I agree that these two ideas are present in a large swath of fundamentalism. I agree that we need to get away from them.

However, I stoutly maintain that the presence of this culture is NOT fostering child sexual abuse. The charges are false. The need to change these attitudes are changes that are necessary IN ADDITION to ongoing vigilance and wisdom with respect to preventing (as much as possible) the possibility of sexual abuse occurring in connection with our ministries.

@Dave

You know, I don’t buy the victim mentality of our culture. I am not about to apologize for anything I have no part of. I have plenty of faults that are on display from time to time and I hope I have the courage to confess and apologize for them when I fail. But I am not going to apologize for some nebulous attitude or what have you that may or may not be somewhat characteristic of some within fundamentalism.

I may preach against those attitudes/actions and try to correct them where I can, but my loyalty to fundamentalism is to the concept far more than to the people. (At least, I hope that idealistic statement is true.)

Individuals who have done wrong – covered up abuse, for example – need to be called to confess and repent. But there sin (if and when it exists) is their responsibility, not mine.

And in any case, we are not talking about some specific incident in this thread, we are talking about the charges that there is something systemic in fundamentalism that fosters, encourages, allows sexual abuse to occur. That I continue to stoutly deny.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jeremiah 33.3

“Further, we have been accused of X, Y, and Z. This accusation grieves us, and we take it seriously. We do not dismiss it out of hand although we are not entirely convinced it is true. But recognizing the depravity of every human heart and the other errors of our movement, we admit it could be true. We desire to know and repent of any way we have harmed other believers and hurt the cause of Jesus Christ and His church.

In light of this we will be engaging in dialogue with the principal individuals who believe they have been wronged, and commit to make whatever changes–be it in doctrine, practice, or culture–that this prayerful examination before the Lord, his Word, and our brothers and sisters reveals to us we ought make.

What would that hurt?

I think there are some changes that Fundamentalism needs to make (and maybe some of us have already made).

1. We need to get away from the idea of protecting the ministry at all cost. You may think that is not a reality. Because I have been vocal about these issues, I am getting contacted. More than one person has given me accedotal eveidence that the very thing happened in their churches and in their families. They told me it was a good thing b/c it protected the ministry.
Conventional wisdom in the past was we should protect our ministries and handle this quietly. And if younger pastors seek counsel from other pastors who say keep it quiet follow that advice, then that is what happens. You and I don’t handle things this way, but it is clear that many did.

2. There is also a culture of digging your heals inand standing by your decisions. That can be a great thing. Yet, part of being apt to teach is being teachable. That means that when we are proven wrong, we are humble enough to admit our wrongs. For those in our calling as a whole, I don’t think we (as pastors) are always humble enough to do that. In fact, down here in the states, that is VERY true.

Are these two issues ONLY in fundamentalism? No. Yet, they were in encouraged (see point 1) and are often looked over (see point to – “Brother so and so sticks by his guns no matter what.”) Whether these issues I have raised are systemic or not and whether these things I have raised are not only in Fundy land does not matter. They are sinful and it needs to change. Those of us who are not doing those (and I put you in that category) need to demand others raise the bar.

Shouldn’t there be something in IFB culture that makes it LESS likely than in other segments of society? Shouldn’t the grace of God teach us to deny worldly lusts? Shouldn’t the sins that are an embarrasment even to the Gentiles be utterly foreign to us? Shouldn’t we be unspotted from the world?

I think I understand why you’re defending what you’re defending. But your defense comes across (to me at least) as a rather smug statement that everything’s A-OK. Nothing to see here. Just move along. We’re no worse than the Catholics or the youth hockey league so there’s no problem.

I just don’t accept that as good enough. I have no animus toward rational, historic fundamentalism. I am one. (Well, hopefully the rational part fits.) I don’t want to see the movement destroyed. But it’s well past time for judgment to begin at the house of God. There is a problem. It’s real. And even if the message comes from Shimei, perhaps we should listen to the warning.

Ah, now I can see. Fundamentalists are right from the right perspective. Got it. The panorama is expansive.

Well, Keith, it isn’t just a matter of perspective. We aren’t relativists, everyone is right in their own eyes perspective…

Bob has quite clearly distanced himself from fundamentalism and mocks it and attacks it at every turn. Read his post. He says he was an insider. He is no longer. And in this case, I am simply saying his attempt to use this terrible story to attack fundamentalism is wrong. Please do take the blinders off.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jeremiah 33.3