Hi Kent,

Interesting. At some point I think it might become an issue of discipline, but at what level would you discipline someone for immodest dress and, assuming refusal of repentance, what would be your Scriptural grounds for such discipline?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Either way, I’m fine leaving it with the readers to judge.

well, Keith, we can leave it to the readers to judge. You rarely want to interact with what is said.

When you say, “I do think that some time spent pondering the distinction between mocking a certain approach to modesty and the Biblical teaching on modesty might be illuminating” are you saying that Mahaney’s teaching isn’t biblical? Because I am affirming his teaching on this subject, with some quibbles. But as far as it goes, I basically agree with his teaching on modesty and thought I said so.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Sure I can take someone at their word, when their word is what is in question. However, your word doesn’t get to establish what is reality in evangelicalism — something other than your word is in question there.

Further, you didn’t say anything in your previous comment about it being “so called fundamentalists (evangelical wannabes)” mocking fundamentalists. I assumed you were talking about evangelicals mocking fundamentalists. I apologize for the faulty assumption.

I’ll take you at your word that you know some “so called fundamentalists” who mock the teaching on modesty. Although, I do think that some time spent pondering the distinction between mocking a certain approach to modesty and the Biblical teaching on modesty might be illuminating. There is a difference between rejecting certain cultural approaches to modesty and rejecting the Bible’s teaching on the subject.

“And you wonder why we think you just want to argue? Sheesh!”

Well, if you can take me at my word, no I don’t “just” want to argue. You have been saying certain things about worldliness and about evangelicalism that I find harmful, and so I’ve commented on that — because I believe and care about what I’ve commented, not just to argue.

Nevertheless, at worst, I’ve interacted with your arguments and teaching in a way similar to what you are doing with Maheney’s book. Not sure why what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander.

Ed seems to be making the points I’d like to make better than I am. So, I’ll bow out and let him continue.

Ok, I looked at the quote again. He said, “Today, the issue is immodest and sensual clothing more than ostentatious attire.” So he didn’t say ostentation wasn’t a problem. But he clearly wants to talk about immodesty only, and for the most part, other than a few oblique comments at the end, stays on topic.

But surely ostentation ought to be a pastoral concern today, no? It apparently isn’t too much of one, since so many dress so fine in churches all across the land. I have held to the notion that we should dress more formally when we attend Sunday services, but I am coming to think this can be a problem as well.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

“Today, the issue is immodest and sensual clothing more than ostentatious attire”

So if I said “I like Mahaney more than Johnson”, would that be a clear statement that I don’t like you at all? Then later, if I said, “I do like Johnson” I would be inconsistent?

No, don’t think so. It’s just Keith.

I am reading the book because a friend of mine asked me to. I decided to share my observations on line as a way of thinking through the book as I read it. (In fact, it isn’t my copy… my friend mailed it to me, all the way from Noo York, because he thinks I’m a bigot too. He’s right.)

It is hard to read without preconceptions, and I expected to disagree with the book to some extent.

However, please note my essay on ch. 3. I was surprised by Kauflin’s position on music which wasn’t as bad as I expected. In fact, I think he makes my arguments on the subject, just doesn’t realize the implications of his own positions.

I admit I am negative, especially about Mahaney. It bugs me when the scriptures are mishandled. I really don’t care who is doing it. In this case I happen to be writing about an evangelical book.

I’ll offer a summary critique after I post my observations on the last chapter. That one is in the works.

And… Mahaney clearly states ostentatious clothing is no issue. His later comments show a bit of inconsistency on that, but that is his statement.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3