Hi Keith,

Well, the preacher should plead with people to believe, because that is what God does. God says, “Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.” (NAU Isaiah 55:1). He doesn’t say, “Ask me to give you faith.” He says, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.” (KJV Isaiah 45:22). He has Paul say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

I would challenge you to find anywhere in the Bible where it says “Beg of God to give you faith;”. Everywhere the appeal is simply to believe, exercise faith, not ask for it.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

One last reply, then I’ll gladly give it a rest as you say . . .

Yes, it is ludicrous to think that someone who isn’t regenerated could want to have faith. However, a preacher speaking to a gathered congregation does not know who is elect. He also knows that he has been commanded to preach the gospel — which is one of God’s means of regenerating the elect. He pleads with people for God, and God will use that pleading to do His work. No calvinist says that “it’s all of God” in the sense that God rules out means. On the contrary, they strongly insist that God’s ordinary way is not unmediated but by means.

Here’s an analogy. It’s wartime and word comes that the camp — which includes the infirmary tent — is about to be overrun by the enemy. You run into the medics tent and shout, “Wake up and get up, we’ve got to get out of here!” You don’t know who died earlier in the night and who is still alive — but you sincerely call out to all. Those who are alive, will respond.

Now to rest.

Well, Keith, we could go on and on as usual. But let’s just give it a rest.

It is ludicrous to think that someone who isn’t regenerated could want to have faith, according to Calvinist dogma. They can’t want it. They are dead. It would be like pleading with a corpse to want to get up.

If it’s all of God, according to Calvinist theology, they should plead with God, not the sinner.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

No it isn’t. Only an ingnorant, aberrant “calvinist” tells anyone to “feign sincerity.” That’s why your “fun and games” here isn’t funny. Everyone who properly understands calvinism believes, with passion, that you sincerely plead with people to repent and believe — there’s no feigning involved.

And, I understand that your misunderstanding/misinterpretation of Whitefield is ludicrous. In fact it really does fit the bill of “fun and games.” Whitefield can’t claim credit for the laugh though.

Keith, no one thinks a ‘proper Calvinist’ would tell anyone that. Nevertheless, it is what they do.

And Whitfield’s statement is still ludicrous.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

No proper Calvinist would tell anyone that. Rather, God’s method with sinners is to sincerely plead for a response which those who are regenerated will certainly (not just possibly) make. The message is one of His means for accomplishing his purpose.

“I am sure you will be able to find some statement of mine where I say something that doesn’t match my professed theology.”

Of course that’s true for anyone. And, it’s totally fine to have fun with Calvinists or anyone else. However, Whitfield’s statement here is in complete agreement with his Calvinist theology.

Keith

hey, Larry, please note the category on this post: “Fun and Games”. This is not meant to be a serious post. We are not attempting to do theology. We are attempting to enjoy the foibles of theology that we all have. I am sure you will be able to find some statement of mine where I say something that doesn’t match my professed theology.

But when you try to make a “Fun and Games” post serious and sober, you run the risk of proving the theory that Calvinists are humorless androids.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

2. Since you admit that Calvinists distinguish between regeneration and conversion, should not you reflect that in your post? It sounds like you are saying “We know that Calvinists don’t believe this, but we are going to accuse them of it anyway in order to make our point.” It seems to me that if you are going to talk about their positions, you should use their dictionary.

3. With respect to “regeneration” I think you are committing a fundamental exegetical fallacy of trying to break words down into parts. That doesn’t always work, and this is one of those cases. Regeneration, theologically, is the giving of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. It doesn’t really have to do with “again” so far as I know. You can say it means making alive again, but I doubt you will find many theologies that will say that. And it will probably make people wonder why you are creating your own meaning instead of using the common one.

4. Even if you are right about the order and definition, it still seems incorrect to liken regeneration (making alive) with conversion (repentance and faith). In the traditional Calvinist position, regeneration precedes conversion. In the traditional non-Calvinist position, conversion precedes regeneration. In either case, they are not the same.