Keith, sorry, I left this post unapproved for a long time. I was traveling when you wrote, then forgot about it. I am so late, I don’t really remember what we were discussing and I don’t have time to go back and review it. So I’ll thank you for your comment and leave it at that.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

But, late as it is:

1) Most Americans (myself included) are pretty close to indentured servants today and our nation continues down the road to serfdom. How many can walk away from their jobs and houses? Technically they can. They just have to save up the money — that used to be called manumission.

2) I didn’t say indentured servitude is ok, God did — for a time. Just like he said that, for a time, “Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread.” (Gen 3) Thankfully, though, the time of both is passing away, and for that I am very glad. I am glad that some day there will be no more slavery or servitude of any kind — we will all be free indeed. Just like I am glad that some day there will be no more toil of any kind (slavery, indentured service, wage work, etc.) in the thorns and thistles.

It’s interesting, isn’t it, that at the same time that God will put an end to the curse, he will serve his people a banquet including aged wines:

“On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine—the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth.” (Isaiah 25: 6-8)

Keith

Hi Keith

You’re a little late on this, in case you hadn’t noticed.

If you think indentured servitude is OK, by all means go ahead and try to purchase a servant for your household. Let me know how it goes.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I’m not following at all — just more of my neo-evangelical mush headedness I’m sure.

Man stealing slavery = always wrong
Indentured servitude and other forms of what is referred to as slavery = not always wrong
Drunkenness by wine = always wrong
Other uses of wine = not always wrong

What’s difficult about this?

Also, the discussion seems to be totally missing the flow of redemptive history — the unfolding of God’s plan, and the progress toward the fully restored and glorified heavens and earth. I mean, the bad and painful things that resulted from the fall — things like slavery, indentured servitude, even burdensome toil for wages, as well as drunkenness — are fading away and will one day be put away completely as every tear is dried, BUT the good and pleasing things that are not a part of the curse — things like creativity and the wine God made to gladden the heart — will forever be used for our good and God’s glory.

again, what’s difficult about this?

Keith

Hi Larry

Well, we don’t condemn slavery simply on the basis of manstealing, but the argument “slavery in biblical times was significantly different than what most people think of as ‘slavery’ today” is exactly one of the arguments we make about alcohol.

The point is that we can biblically prohibit both without appeal to a direct imperative.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

So iIsn’t it instructive, at some level, that the OT Law regulates slavery rather than condemning it? The same cannot be said for adultery, theft, etc. which are always condemned.

So I am not sure I follow your connection here since it would seem to work against what you are trying to say.

@ Dave

Just to be clear, I am not making a case for equivalency of the two acts. I am attempting in this piece to argue for theological authority for a prohibition when such prohibition is not directly given in Scripture. In other words, I believe that things that were allowed and even regulated by Scripture can be seen by spiritually minded people to be quite wrong and entirely out of keeping with Scriptural teaching and practice.

@ Brian

Regarding the water, I once thought that the mixing was primarily for water purification. Further study has pointed out that while this may be a purpose for mixing water and wine in some cases, it quite clearly is not in every case or in most cases. There were two primary reasons for mixing water and wine from my research: 1) To hinder drunkenness, and 2) To extend supply, especially in regions where there were few grapes and/or great distance to markets.

Regardless, these points are really extraneous to my argument here. In fact, what I am arguing here is that we can make biblical arguments carrying biblical authority to prohibit the use of alcoholic beverages by Christians, regardless whether it is diluted, fortified, hard liquor, moderated, etc.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I do however concur with your general line of reasoning that we need not have an express command from the Bible to determine the best or “rightest” course of action in a give situation today. Discernment applies multiple applicable principles.

Interesting. You might be right about the quibble on terms. However, would you say that it is legitimate to advocate for a prohibitionist stance towards slavery, or should we merely abstain?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3