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by on 9.22.08

silence reigns in FINO land

Scott Aniol alerts us to a raging discussion over in the realms of conservative evangelicalism. Nathan Busenitz, managing editor at Pulpit Magazine wrote an article published on the 17th of September entitled “John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and Harsh Language“. Busenitz rightly takes Driscoll and Piper to task for Driscoll’s foul language. In the comments, we discover in a post by Steve Camp that Driscoll isn’t the only one to use bad language in connection with the Desiring God conference. No, Paul Tripp likewise has a foul mouth. You can read about it (and see the associated video, if  you care to) at Steve’s blog, “PAUL TRIPP-ING – HE REALLY LIKES TO SAY THE ‘S’ WORD …has Piper lost his mind or just forgotten his Bible?”

It is instructive to read the comments on both posts. And equally instructive to read the execrable Doug Wilson come to Piper’s defense, ironically, in his post “A Temporizing Baa-Lamb“. Quite frankly, his comments are shameful. It is hard to believe that people become so devoted to such men that many objectionable statements, positions, and actions are just overlooked.

While this debate rages in the conservative evangelical realm, FINO land remains serene in its silence. Could it be that no one has read these posts? Surely not. Where is the response? Will anyone ever admit that perhaps there is something not quite right about Piper et al on this? At least the MacArthur camp is taking a stab at it, however mild.

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UPDATE: Nathan Busenitz follows up with a still too weak rebuke of Driscoll and no rebuke of Piper. It seems to me that Piper is the one more worthy of rebuke, because his invitation to Driscoll and his public affirmation of him is only serving to enable Driscoll’s continuing bad behaviour. Were Piper to really rebuke Driscoll and refuse association with him, it might have had some real impact. Piper’s comments last year seemed to start working in that direction, then Piper backed off. For shame.

Filed Under: Driscoll, Issues, Personalities, Piper, Separation, Worldliness
by on 8.20.08

interesting

Franklin Graham unhappy with movie about father

An article discusses an upcoming movie about Billy Graham. It has this interesting paragraph concerning Franklin Graham’s biggest objection to the movie:

A scene Franklin Graham found more “troublesome,” DeMoss said, was one he categorized as embellished. In it, Bob Jones Sr., then-president of fundamentalist Bob Jones College, tells young Billy Graham, a student who has questioned some of the school’s strict views, that he will never amount to anything. In the scene, darkness partly obscures the ranting Jones.

DeMoss said Franklin Graham felt that the scene “completely misrepresented Bob Jones” and has written a letter to Bob Jones III, now president of Bob Jones University, assuring him that “we didn’t collaborate on the film.”

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UPDATE: Christianity Today weighs in with their own article.

Filed Under: General Interest, Graham
by on 8.18.08

what one wishes DMD said

A friend of mine recently gave me a set of CDs containing the messages from the 2007 Mid-America Conference on Preaching, a conference hosted every year at Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary.

Unfortunately, none of the sessions from the 2007 conference appear to be available on-line, but I would encourage you to seek out a copy for yourself. In particular, I would like to draw your attention to a workshop by Dave Doran on this subject:

Conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalists:

Recognizing the Differences

I have been critical of Dave for his message this summer at the FBF. If he had presented the material in this workshop at the FBF meeting, there would have been nothing to criticize.

I am going to include a few clips below. Dave’s presentation on this occasion was extremely clear and helpful. What mystifies me is how he can be so clear on some occasions and so confusing on others.

Be that as it may, I want to give you a summary of Dave’s presentation, taken directly from the accompanying pdf notes file that must have been included at the workshop itself.

[Read more…]

Filed Under: Doran, Fundamentalism, Issues, New Evangelicalism, Personalities, Separation
by on 7.22.08

parsing Doran

In the comments to my ‘still no middle ground’ post, I made this comment to Dave Doran:

When Dever posted his response on 9marks to the Minnick interview, your answer (very early in the thread) was excellent. But on the other hand, you have said other things at other venues that seem disconnected with fundamentalist philosophy. Here I am thinking specifically of your recent message at the FBF conference and your speaking at a church in the “MacArthur orbit” not too long ago.

In response, Dave said this:

I’d be interested to hear what your concerns about the FBF message are. … I suppose I should say, I am interested in your concerns, but not likely to engage in much discussion over them simply because I am trying to cut back on blog discussions currently. So, please do offer your assessment and I will attempt to listen carefully, just probably won’t respond lest I find myself in a long discussion.

Well folks, I am not sure of the wisdom of publishing this commentary. This could too easily be construed as a personal attack. My focus is on what Dave said and what it seems to convey about the directions fundamentalist leaders are taking (i.e., mostly inaction while the younger set speculate about the future of fundamentalism).

So at the outset, let me offer my appreciation to Dave for requesting a more detailed assessment. I am not planning an extended discussion of this beyond this post. As Dave mentioned, understanding our busy schedules and the need to minimize some of the blog activity, I will let his response stand as is though I may add a point or two if absolute clarity is needed.

[Read more…]

Filed Under: Doran, Fundamentalism, Issues, Personalities, Separation
by on 7.18.08

a few more notes from the Calgary discussion

I’d like to wrap up my reporting of our discussion in Calgary led by pastor Mark Minnick. Our subject was Conservative Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism, an afternoon discussion session at the annual meeting of the Western Canada Baptist Fellowship.

My first report is here and my most recent, and perhaps most significant report is here.

This post is going to be a bit of a hodge-podge, just a few random thoughts from my notes that I didn’t include earlier, but thought worthy of your attention.

[Read more…]

Filed Under: Fundamentalism, Issues, Minnick, New Evangelicalism, Personalities, Separation
by on 7.14.08

still no middle ground

Some ongoing reflections on a discussion about “Conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalists” held in Calgary, AB, June 27, 2008.

See earlier notes here.

Perhaps the most interesting question on our minds for this discussion is just what Pastor Minnick thinks can be done in cooperation with conservative evangelicals. The question was raised by Mark Dever in his recently published interview of Pastor Minnick this way:

“What would we have to do to change for you to be free to preach here?”

The same question has been discussed here and here with the majority of commenters seemingly unsatisfied with the specificity of Pastor Minnick’s answer at that time. You will see a commenter raising the question again in my last post on the subject and the question was raised both in the public discussion in Calgary and in personal conversation. The question is being framed in different ways, but essentially it is the same question. Dever’s articulation of it is as good as any.

Apparently, some are of the mind that very little prevents someone like Pastor Minnick from being free to preach at a Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Some have said that it is merely the connections with fundamentalist institutions that prevent such cooperation.

[Read more…]

Filed Under: Dever, Fundamentalism, Issues, Minnick, New Evangelicalism, Separation
by on 7.6.08

and now, a word from a fundamentalist

My friend, Matt Recker, offers a powerful sermon entitled “The Dangerous Direction of Rick Warren“

Here are a few words from the concluding paragraph:

Warren mocks Fundamentalism and has said, “There aren’t that many Fundamentalists left in America.” May I remind Rick Warren that “might does not make right?”  Although Warren may interpret God’s blessing in terms of numbers, God never does. There were not many who got into Noah’s Ark.  There were not many who accepted the prophetic statements of Isaiah or Jeremiah.  There were not many following Jesus when He went to the cross!  Nevertheless, there are still some very godly, balanced, loving, and doctrinally sound Biblical fundamentalists and churches throughout our nation, and there is still this one, and as long as God allows, I will contend for the holiness of God and the purity of the Gospel.

Not much ‘nuancing’ going on here!

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HT: Lighthouse Trails

Filed Under: Fundamentalism, Issues, Personalities, Separation, Warren
by on 6.30.08

so who cares about separation?

The average fundamentalist cares. Do evangelicals care?

In spite of recent interest in the fundamentalist question by Mark Dever and his ministries, doesn’t it seem that the interest is more of an amused curiosity rather than genuine interest?

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Filed Under: Dever, Issues, Personalities, Separation
by on 6.26.08

preachers of influence

I want to pick up on something I said in my last post. I was observing the influence of much admired and frequently listened to preachers on those who admire and listen to them. Here is a bit of what I said:

The preachers you listen to influence your own preaching. … I have spent hours listening to Mark Minnick. Mark was my Pulpit Speech teacher. I have intentionally tried to imitate his methods and something of his style. As I began listening to the Trinity messages this summer though (and most of them were Chuck Phelps), I caught myself a few times in the pulpit saying things in a way that sounded to me like the way Chuck would say it. I think Chuck has a certain cadence to his preaching that is a bit unique among preachers, and I was unconsciously (or semi-consciously) picking up on that.

Chuck himself mentioned this tendency among preacher boys in one of the messages I listened to today. He said that those who sat under Tom Malone often mimicked some of his habits as did those who sat under Dr Bob Sr. Of course, I have observed this with other admired preachers as well. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing!

But it does mean preachers need to be careful who they admire, who they listen to, and who influences them. I think that subject is probably worth another post at some point.

The influence of one preacher on another is all well and good if the admired and followed preacher is a fully faithful member of the clergy. You may pick up mannerisms – that is one thing. But much more you should pick up philosophy, methodology, zeal, and ministry patterns. And you will, if you make a study of a particular preacher or preachers.

That means you must choose your models very, very carefully. Some young men today are making extremely unwise choices in this regard.

[Read more…]

Filed Under: Fundamentalism, Issues, Minnick, Personalities, Phelps, Preaching
by on 6.15.08

do conservative ‘e’s separate?

Mark Dever asks, I think, for fundamentalists to clearly and consistently spell out what separation means to them. I could be wrong, and am willing to stand corrected, but I think he is asking the same question that I thought was unanswered in the Minnick interview (see previous posts).

Here is my initial answer to Dever’s questions as posted in the comment section of the 9marks blog (I add a bit more below my quoted answer):

[Read more…]

Filed Under: Dever, Fundamentalism, Issues, New Evangelicalism, Personalities
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