{"id":1125,"date":"2009-02-02T00:02:10","date_gmt":"2009-02-02T08:02:10","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/2009\/02\/02\/what-is-the-meaning-of-this\/"},"modified":"2009-02-02T00:02:10","modified_gmt":"2009-02-02T08:02:10","slug":"what-is-the-meaning-of-this","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/2009\/02\/02\/what-is-the-meaning-of-this\/","title":{"rendered":"what is the meaning of this"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In <a href=\"http:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/2009\/01\/29\/everything-has-meaning-so\/\" target=\"_blank\">this post<\/a>, I asked:<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<h5>What does <em><a href=\"http:\/\/www1.cbs.edu\/nlc\/general.html\">this<\/a><\/em> mean?<\/h5>\n<p>Ben Wright <a href=\"http:\/\/paleoevangelical.blogspot.com\/2009\/01\/ed-welch-to-speak-at-cbts-leadership.html\">thinks<\/a> it means something. Notice carefully Ben\u2019s headline. Then consider the full <a href=\"http:\/\/www1.cbs.edu\/nlc\/schedule.html\">schedule<\/a> of events. Notice the place and prominence given to what Ben calls a &quot;special guest lecturer&quot;.<\/p>\n<p>I would suggest, &quot;featured speaker,&quot; would be more accurate.<\/p>\n<p>But, dear reader, what do <em>you<\/em> think it means? I have an opinion. Of course. I\u2019ll share it with you shortly. But I\u2019d like to see if anyone would care to &quot;pontificate&quot;, as Ben calls it, before I charm you with my opining.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p>Several readers have given their opinions:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Kent thinks &quot;fundamentalism, as you knew it, Don, is essentially gone&quot;<\/li>\n<li>Jack thinks &quot;they don\u2019t appear to be concerned about being fundamental or baptist&quot;<\/li>\n<li>Andy thinks &quot;We are definitely in a time of transition&quot; though he wouldn&#8217;t look at Calvary seminary as a benchmark<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>No one who reads me regularly will be surprised to know that I tend to agree with these opinions. It seems to me that Ben, whose post alerted me to this conference, sees the same things I and others are seeing. His headline is &quot;<a href=\"http:\/\/paleoevangelical.blogspot.com\/2009\/01\/ed-welch-to-speak-at-cbts-leadership.html\" target=\"_blank\">Ed Welch to Speak at CBTS Leadership Conference<\/a>&quot;. He is picking up on the significance of Welch&#8217;s participation. He learned of this conference, it seems, over at SI, where the whole article reads this way:<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<h5><a href=\"http:\/\/sharperiron.org\/2009\/01\/29\/national-leadership-conference-to-focus-on-ministering-gods-truth-in-a-broken-world\/\" target=\"_blank\">National Leadership Conference To Focus On \u201cMinistering God\u2019s Truth In A Broken World\u201d<\/a><\/h5>\n<p>by <a href=\"http:\/\/sharperiron.org\/member.php?userid=426\">PastorJoeRoof<\/a> at 5:48 pm January 29, 2009. 82 views. Filed under: <a href=\"http:\/\/sharperiron.org\/category\/features\/filings\/\">Filings<\/a> <\/p>\n<p>Read <a href=\"http:\/\/www1.cbs.edu\/nlc\/general.html\">here<\/a>. <\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p>To date, there has been <em>no<\/em> discussion of the link at SI, but it is not too surprising, because they only mention the conference itself, not Welch&#8217;s participation. So it hasn&#8217;t received much attention over there. But Ben picks up on it. This is a fairly significant event.<\/p>\n<p>Why do I say that?<\/p>\n<p> <!--more-->  <\/p>\n<p>First of all, Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary and Calvary Baptist Church are fairly well known and accepted into Fundamentalist fellowship. Their personnel often speak at other Fundamentalist conferences and prominent Fundamentalists speak at their conference, as they are doing this year.<\/p>\n<p>When a Fundamentalist institution <em>headlines<\/em> a clearly evangelical teacher (albeit in the less threatening &#8216;counselling&#8217; genre!) as the main speaker at an erstwhile Fundamentalist conference, that is news. It is a change. It represents something that certainly wouldn&#8217;t have happened ten years ago, or even five. Or maybe even last year.<\/p>\n<p>Secondly, for well known Fundamentalists to participate in such a conference, well, that too is a change. Wasn&#8217;t it just a couple of years ago that Dr. Olilla withdrew from a Pro-Teens conference because John MacArthur&#8217;s youth pastor was one of the speakers? (Ken Holland was the name if I remember correctly.) Yet here we have the list of speakers at Calvary:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Dan Anderson<\/strong> &#8211; President, Appalachian Bible College, Bradley, West Virginia<\/li>\n<li><strong>George Coon<\/strong> &#8211; Professor, Calvary Baptist Seminary, Lansdale, Pennsylvania<\/li>\n<li><strong>Dave Doran<\/strong> &#8211; Pastor, Inter-City Baptist Church, President &amp; Professor, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, Allen Park, Michigan<\/li>\n<li><strong>Tim Jordan<\/strong> &#8211; Pastor, Calvary Baptist Church, Chancellor, Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary, Lansdale, Pennsylvania<\/li>\n<li><strong>Bill Park<\/strong> &#8211; Professor, Calvary Baptist Seminary Lansdale, Pennsylvania<\/li>\n<li><strong>Jerry Thacker<\/strong> &#8211; Ministry Marketing Researcher, Strategic Consultant, and HIV\/AIDS Educator<\/li>\n<li><strong>Ed Welch<\/strong> &#8211; Psychologist &amp; Faculty Member, Christian Counseling &amp; Educational Foundation, Glenside, Pennsylvania<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Fundamentalists, I should say, but one. And then there are the speakers for the Workshops\u2026 I won&#8217;t give you the <a href=\"http:\/\/www1.cbs.edu\/nlc\/workshops.html\" target=\"_blank\">whole list<\/a>, but here are a few highlights:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Greg Mazak<\/strong> \u2013 Bob Jones University<\/li>\n<li><strong>Bruce Meyer<\/strong> \u2013 Maranatha Baptist Bible College<\/li>\n<li><strong>Rob Campbell<\/strong> \u2013 Pastor Bethel Baptist Church, Sellersville, PA and host of last years national Fundamental Baptist Fellowship meeting<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>These lists are representative of the &quot;branch&quot; of Fundamentalism with which I have been associated throughout my ministry. I have spoken in one of the churches on this list. I graduated from BJU and am a Life Member of the Alumni Association. I say this to simply illustrate that this has been &quot;my crowd&quot;, and to then testify that in my training years at BJU, this kind of association would not have happened. As I said earlier, it wouldn&#8217;t have happened even a few years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Why is that? Is Welch an &quot;untouchable&quot;, some kind of doctrinal deviant from whom all must be warned?<\/p>\n<p>No, hardly. One can quibble over some of his positions and teachings, but as far as I can tell (and I have read <em>most<\/em> of his books), he is thoroughly orthodox. I think he has a fine Christian testimony and does a lot of good for the Lord.<\/p>\n<p>The younger set seems to be asking why we would bother to maintain a distance if these things are true.<\/p>\n<p>I have listened to countless sermons by Mark Minnick. I think in his Romans series, on the &quot;separation verses&quot; in Rm 15, he comments on the desire to see conservative evangelicals to take a more separated stance (and he is hopeful that they will). Those messages were preached some time ago, but I have heard him repeat similar sentiments in several other messages. One thing he has said that sticks with me goes like this [my paraphrase]: &quot;For there to be closer cooperation between us, the evangelicals are going to have to admit that the Fundamentalists were right in the 1950s.&quot; (Or words to that effect.) As late as last summer, he personally and publicly assured me that there remain barriers where he could not speak in an evangelical pulpit like Mark Dever&#8217;s Capitol Hill Baptist (where Ben Wright is a member, I believe) and that he could not invite someone like Dever to Mount Calvary.<\/p>\n<p>In this very blog, again last summer, Dave Doran also publicly stated that he could not have a Dever preach in his pulpit in the current circumstances. Why? Significant barriers remain.<\/p>\n<p>This fall, in his lectures at International Baptist Bible College, Kevin Bauder stated that significant barriers remain. But he did add that <em>some level<\/em> of cooperation was possible.<\/p>\n<p>I guess this represents that some level, eh?<\/p>\n<p>But it also represents a change.<\/p>\n<p>In the past, some leaders in Fundamentalism would have roundly denounced this kind of association if anyone dared to suggest it. (Am I not right?) Of course, we can dismiss these dead dinosaurs as relics of the past who fought an old fight that isn&#8217;t going on anymore and it is time to move on.<\/p>\n<h5>Ok, so what are we moving on to?<\/h5>\n<p>I have nothing against Welch, per se. A lot of what he says is valuable. But these evangelical guys are much more open to associations and fellowships that I am just not comfortable with. For example, I have been quite critical of the cussing pastor from Seattle in these pages. Many of the conservative evangelicals are quite willing to assist him, promote him, put him on their platforms and say favorable things about him. <em>Are we moving on to a closer relationship with him?<\/em><\/p>\n<p>One of Welch&#8217;s associates, another well-respected counselling teacher, is headlined on Steve Camp&#8217;s blog this way: <a href=\"http:\/\/stevenjcamp.blogspot.com\/2008\/09\/paul-tripp-ing-likes-to-say-s-word-has.html\">____ ____-ING &#8211; HE REALLY LIKES TO SAY THE &quot;S&quot; WORD &#8230;has Piper lost his mind or just forgotten his Bible?<\/a> (Be warned, there is a video here you might not want your children to hear.) This same associate appeared with the Seattle Cusser at John Piper&#8217;s Desiring God conference last fall. <em>Are we moving on to a closer relationship with him?<\/em><\/p>\n<p>And there is still the issues of the new-evangelical compromise. Oh, yes, perhaps Welch, Dever, Piper, et al are not <em>exactly<\/em> new-evangelicals. But they sure love the new-evangelicals and think they saved the church from fundamentalism. In fact, they are quite willing to <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Evangelism-Sovereignty-God-Ivp-Classics\/dp\/0830834125\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1233561173&amp;sr=1-1\" target=\"_blank\">join in the publication<\/a> of books with new-evangelicals and will not break ties with them. <em>Are we moving on to a closer relationship with them?<\/em><\/p>\n<h5>Let&#8217;s start a pool!<\/h5>\n<p>How long do you think it will be before one of these prominent <strike>new<\/strike> evangelicals is the featured speaker in the pulpit of a leading Fundamentalist church or institution?<\/p>\n<p>How long do you think it will be before a leading Fundamentalist speaks in the pulpit of one of these leading <strike>new<\/strike> evangelicals?<\/p>\n<p>How long do you think it will be before a Fundamentalist is added to the roster of the Togetherness boys? (Maybe longer for that one. One of us will have to write a best-selling book that gets the kudos of the evangelical crowd. I don&#8217;t think any of us can write well enough\u2026 gotta give up those crayons!)<\/p>\n<p>How long do you think it will be for a prominent Fundamentalist pastor or leader of one of our institutions to say, &#8216;Hey, that&#8217;s not right&#8217;?<\/p>\n<p>[Don&#8217;t hold your breath on that last one!]<\/p>\n<p>Kent said he thinks Fundamentalism is done. I am afraid so. Unless\u2026<\/p>\n<p>Unless\u2026<\/p>\n<p>Just maybe\u2026<\/p>\n<p>One or two of our leaders start raising a bit of a stink and say we aren&#8217;t ready to cooperate if these guys won&#8217;t give up their cussing buddies and their new-evangelical mentors.<\/p>\n<p>Any takers?<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" title=\"don_sig2\" style=\"border-right: 0px; border-top: 0px; display: inline; border-left: 0px; border-bottom: 0px\" height=\"50\" alt=\"don_sig2\" src=\"http:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/02\/don-sig21.png\" width=\"150\" border=\"0\" \/><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this post, I asked: What does this mean? Ben Wright thinks it means something. Notice carefully Ben\u2019s headline. Then consider the full schedule of events. Notice the place and prominence given to what Ben calls a &quot;special guest lecturer&quot;. I would suggest, &quot;featured speaker,&quot; would be more accurate. But, dear reader, what do you [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true},"categories":[105,37,71,77,44],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p2fYWj-i9","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1125"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1125"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1125\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1125"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1125"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1125"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}