{"id":1695,"date":"2010-07-08T22:44:01","date_gmt":"2010-07-09T06:44:01","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/2010\/07\/08\/why-oppose-some-and-wait-on-others\/"},"modified":"2010-07-08T22:44:01","modified_gmt":"2010-07-09T06:44:01","slug":"why-oppose-some-and-wait-on-others","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/2010\/07\/08\/why-oppose-some-and-wait-on-others\/","title":{"rendered":"why oppose some and wait on others?"},"content":{"rendered":"

One of my correspondents challenged me on this subject after the latest rough and tumble debate<\/a> at SI. My correspondent said to me<\/p>\n

\n

You are not charitable with the CE’s IMHO.  You do hold them to a higher standard than our fellow Fundamentalists.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

My correspondent cites some situations where fundamentalists shared platforms with dubious characters and one where a fundamentalist made a judgement in a church discipline situation that appears to have been at least unwise, if current available information is accurate. I have advocated a \u2018wait and see\u2019 position in the latter case. In the platform fellowship cases, I have not had a lot to say, although I have said some<\/em> things.<\/p>\n

My correspondent concludes:<\/p>\n

\n

Taking a wait and see is fine, but not when you are so hard on the CE’s.  You are not consistent in this area in my opinion. <\/p>\n

Until we take out the beams in our eyes, we will not honor and glorify God!<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

I promised my correspondent a response here at oxgoad, so this is it.<\/p>\n

The fact is that I am<\/em> hard on Conservative Evangelicals. They aren\u2019t conservative enough for me and they still have most of the errors of New Evangelicalism as part of their philosophy and modus operandi. They are very little different from the original New Evangelicals (although some differences can be discerned).<\/p>\n

And the fact is that I tend to take a wait and see approach to the errors (real or alleged) of fundamentalists because on the important questions, fundamentalists get the answers right. I might add that I take a wait and see attitude toward fundamentalists of various sorts, including those I criticize most. Some of my other correspondents are ready to virtually tar and feather some of the more leftish fundamentalists. I am not ready to do that yet. These correspondents might think I am too soft.<\/p>\n

Why the difference and what does it reveal?<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

First, I think it reveals that I am a fundamentalist. I think that the willingness to \u201cwait and see\u201d and give room for errors is common to men and it reveals what they really are in their philosophy and ministry orientation. I am willing to work with, tolerate, or even excuse fundamentalists to a certain extent in spite of their errors because we share common values in the things that are most important to me theologically and philosophically. A number of people are willing to work with, tolerate, or excuse conservative evangelicals in spite of their errors. What does that say about their values theologically and philosophically? What does it say when these people also want to wear the label fundamentalist?<\/p>\n

So I think it is quite natural for anyone to make distinctions harder and faster against those outside his group and be more tolerant of those inside his group.<\/p>\n

Well, I can hear the protests now\u2026 You are willing to tolerate errors? And you call yourself a fundamentalist!<\/p>\n

I think that fundamentalism has<\/em> been too guilty of devouring one another\u2026 of eating its own young, so to speak. We have had occasions where divisions are made over issues that really shouldn\u2019t matter. They are matters of soul liberty, in my opinion, and shouldn\u2019t divide the body of Christ (other than perhaps give a focus or flavour of emphasis in a local body). ((For example, I can cooperate to some extent with other fundamentalist brothers who disagree with me about versions, dress issues [to some extent], some church polity issues, etc. They wouldn\u2019t join my church, I wouldn\u2019t join theirs, but we can work together in some ways.))<\/p>\n

I also think that a single error does not a pattern make. And I suppose even two errors does not a pattern make. Some of my friends have done things recently that I wouldn\u2019t have done. I actually corresponded with them about it because I thought their decisions were unwise at best. They had their reasons, I don\u2019t entirely agree with their reasons, but they don\u2019t answer to me, do they? But should I now decide that these errors now preclude all fellowship between us forevermore, amen? I don\u2019t think that is necessary, at least not yet. If they continued to make such errors, if they were consistently making the same mistakes, if they were becoming a bad influence on my own ministry by my association with them, well\u2026 then I would probably have to take steps to disentangle myself from such fellowship. ((For my correspondent whose criticisms prompted this post, yes, I mean the two people in your first examples of my inconsistency.))<\/p>\n

And finally, here is where I think the biggest factor in my treatment of the two parties lies:<\/p>\n

The conservative evangelicals have repudiated fundamentalism as a ministry philosophy. That doesn\u2019t make them my enemies, as such, but it certainly doesn\u2019t make them my opinion leaders. They aren\u2019t the guys I am going to teach my people to pay attention to. I am not going to try to get my people to read their books, go to their conferences, employ their methods or enter any other kind of \u2018guru-like\u2019 relationship with them. I think the fundamental error of the conservative evangelicals is that they continue to insist that the new evangelicals were right when the new evangelicals left fundamentalism.<\/strong><\/p>\n

For this reason alone, their writings and leadership can\u2019t be trusted. They shouldn\u2019t be followed. They shouldn\u2019t be made much of.<\/p>\n

My criticism of the conservative evangelicals is because the errors they make are consistent with their stated philosophies. They aren\u2019t anywhere close to being or becoming fundamentalists, so they don\u2019t act like fundamentalists. I think it is important to point that out to the naive.<\/p>\n

On the other hand, fundamentalists, in spite of their errors, do get fundamentalism right. They understand that there is a difference between the church and the world and they try to maintain it (however imperfectly). They understand that you can\u2019t support every popular Bible teacher that shows up on television, radio, or in your local Christian bookstore. They know that many of these popular teachers will lead you into serious compromises with the world or with false teachers if you follow their teachings to the letter.<\/p>\n

So fundamentalists act like fundamentalists and I appreciate it. I may not like everything my fundamentalist brothers do and I may find that I need to question them about some things they have done. But my fundamentalist brothers are fundamentalists. They have the right philosophy\u2026 and as long as they stick to it, they will get less criticism from me than the conservative evangelicals will.<\/p>\n

I hope that makes some sense. More probably needs to be said, but we can get to that in the comments if anyone cares to engage what I have said.<\/p>\n

I would like to add a few more words that relate more to the recent unpleasantness of the latest SI back and forth that I referenced earlier.<\/p>\n

Some people are mightily impressed with statements that conservative evangelicals have made \u2018distancing\u2019 themselves from some other evangelicals and their excesses. You know, statements are just statements. Anybody can make a statement. What matters is deeds.<\/p>\n

Recently, my online friends ((but not fellow fundamentalists)), the Bayly bros made a very interesting blog<\/a> about goings on at the recent PCA convention. I cite the blog for this quote:<\/p>\n

\n

Except for an excruciatingly close vote on the training and certification of women for ministry roles, the Strategic Plan was adopted en masse\u2014and the Strategic Plan consists of actionable items. Votes on Friday authorizing statements about homosexuality and abortion are toothless institutionally. Statements are statements; action items are action items. <\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Exactly. \u201cStatements are statements; action items are action items.\u201d The conservative evangelicals are good at statements. Let\u2019s see them take some action against some of the egregious errors I keep talking about. Let\u2019s see the Together for Calvin guys kick Piper out for cosying up to Rick Warren. Or at least publicly rebuke him for it, but I\u2019d like to see some action rather than more words.<\/p>\n

Well, that is enough for now. I do welcome comments, but let\u2019s remember my rules about them:<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. They must be ON TOPIC<\/li>\n
  2. They must be actually willing to advance a conversation \u2013 if you keep saying the same thing over and over, you\u2019ll find you don\u2019t get \u2018air time\u2019.<\/li>\n
  3. No insults or demeaning tone.<\/li>\n
  4. I am the sole judge of the above three, if you don\u2019t rise to their level in my opinion alone, well\u2026 thanks for the comment anyway, but it will just be between you and me.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    One of my correspondents challenged me on this subject after the latest rough and tumble debate at SI. My correspondent said to me You are not charitable with the CE’s IMHO.  You do hold them to a higher standard than our fellow Fundamentalists. My correspondent cites some situations where fundamentalists shared platforms with dubious characters […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true},"categories":[105,37],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p2fYWj-rl","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1695"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1695"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1695\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1695"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1695"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/oxgoad.ca\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1695"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}